@servant_of_the_anime_avatars@kiwifarms.cc @BobRoss@pleroma.nobodyhasthe.biz @CommonSay@shitposter.club @CosmaruCiorilor@poa.st @Tripp@poa.st @basadeskaiser@cawfee.club > Clearly it is the single most important goal. If what actually matters is stable respected government, healthy people, etc. then nationalism is only valuable so long as its the best way to ensure those good things. However, there is no significant evidence of that. Could we find evidence? According to @BobRoss@pleroma.nobodyhasthe.biz we can't use other nations as examples of nationalism's success or failure, because only members of a national group "have any ground to stand on to say what is or isn't good for them individually". If you're not German, you have no business evaluating the results of German nationalism. If we're arrogant enough to judge other nations, we see no absolute trends. We could try to reason about nationalism in principal, but social planning is really hard. Expecting nationalism to lead to all the aforementioned *good things* is naive. It's as naive as libertarians screaming about the efficacy of market forces. It's as naive as anarchists screaming about the efficacy of collective consensus driven decision making. It's as naive as communists screaming about the efficacy of worker solidarity. It's as naive as liberals screaming about the efficacy of civil liberties. What should be obvious is that all social planning has to be judged in terms of goals. I've argued that classical liberalism and the ensuing legality has protected the *good things*. I've explained the mechanisms (in terms of post-totalitarianism and legality) and I've given specific examples (cryptowars, FOSS, alt networks, fediverse). If the *good things* are what matter, then how does regressing to nationalism actually help? --- Now that I've pointed out nationalism has no utility, let's wait for a nationalist to claim utility is irrelevant and start asserting "greater purpose" or "family" and accuse me of nihilism. Then I can point out nationalism puts an arbitrary poorly defined temporary nation above God, art, morals, and science. Then a nationalist will show up to say "Nationalism has utility!" And we can continue the cycle.